76. Writing Product Listings That Convert w/ Emma Schermer Tamir

Ben Donovan  00:00
Alright, we are in for a brilliant episode today we’re going to be talking about a critical aspect of an E-commerce business. And that is writing product listings that convert. We’ll be focusing a lot on the Amazon setup, but it also be very applicable for, you know, really creating descriptions that convert buyers on any platform. So make sure you do listen to this whole episode, it’s gonna be a great episode. And we have got with us today to talk through this crucial topic, Emma from Marketing by Emma. Emma, welcome to the show today. 

Emma Schermer Tamir  00:28
Thank you so much for having me. And I love this introduction, I love that you’re really from the get go calling out that these are just essential aspects of really, however, you’re wanting to sell anything. So be at Amazon, be at your own website, even a sales email, all of these concepts that we’re going to talk about might have a little bit of variation depending on the specific platform that you are working with. But the core aspects of what makes it successful are going to be the same regardless. 

Ben Donovan  01:02
Yes, absolutely, absolutely. And at the risk of starting this episode at 100 miles an hour. I think, you know, people selling on Amazon or learning how to write an optimized Amazon listing and learning about features and benefits, it actually elevates you ahead of so many of the DTC websites that I browse, and I look and I shop for stuff and I think your product pages are so bad. It’s like such bland bullet-pointed, you know, cotton, don’t wash in warm water or whatever, for a T-shirt. You know, it’s like, give me the benefits. Tell me why this thing is good. Tell me why I should spend my money with you. And so many websites don’t do it. So I think if you do learn these things, there’s lots of opportunity out there. 

Emma Schermer Tamir  01:42
Absolutely. I think you know, there’s some I’m really bad with remembering the exact expression, you know, the little phrase that people say, but I think there’s something that people say about competition making us stronger. And I think that’s really true when it comes to Amazon because you have to have a really strong understanding of who your competition is, and how you compare to them. And so that, then you can carry over into something like your own website if you have a website on Shopify, or something similar. If you have that in mind, even if you’re just selling on your own site, you’re going to be able to create so much more compelling content than operating within an isolated chamber. 

Ben Donovan  02:28
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I so agree with you. I’ve said that so many times to people that say, “Oh, I wish I started in 2015, where there’s no competition or whatever”. And that’s yes, of course, was an opportunity. But at the same time, you become a better entrepreneur, and a better business owner, when you have to hone your craft. And I think that today’s environment, today’s market actually produces more high-capacity entrepreneurs and better businesses. And you know, I’m glad that I’ve come into, you know, I started selling in 2017. And it wasn’t quite the heyday. But there’s obviously it’s still changed since then. But you know, you had to learn and you had to grow. And you have to develop as an entrepreneur. And I think for long-term mindset for you as an entrepreneur, I think actually, that that makes you be better at what you do, right? 

Emma Schermer Tamir  03:09
Absolutely. It’s, it’s actually quite interesting. We’ve also been in the same space around a similar amount of time. We started our business at the very end of 2016. And so I’ve seen Amazon sort of go through a whole variety of iterations at the time, a plus content or enhanced brand content really wasn’t even a thing and what it was, but it was complicated to get, and it didn’t look very good. And nobody really made an effort to do it. And what’s interesting is actually the amount of people that contact us who started selling in the early days, and are now really struggling because success was so easy for them, it was really just a matter of you choose the right products, you have some good keywords, and you don’t have to do much else. And it’s obviously more complex now. But as a result of that, if you’re not thinking about all of these things, you’re really going to be limited. And so these people that came up in the time when they weren’t needing to figure this out, now they’re seeing all these newer businesses, surpassing them in sales and knocking them out of their, you know, top ranked positions, and they’re like, “what am I supposed to do?” And so they’re really needing to kind of go through a whole new education and understanding what it takes to be competitive now in, you know, 2023 and beyond. 

Ben Donovan  04:36
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, we’ve dived right into it there and I haven’t even asked you, who you are and what you do. So tell the audience like I’ve heard you and seen you in so many podcasts and you know, you’ve been in some, you know, real prominent places, and so it’s an honor to have you on the show, but do for anybody that maybe hasn’t heard you on a different podcast or heard your story, give us a bit of a catch up on who you are and how you came to do what you’re doing.

Emma Schermer Tamir  05:00
Sure, so my name is Emma Schermer Tamir. I am the CEO and co founder of Marketing by Emma. My husband and business partner, Arias and I started our business at the end of 2016. Really, because we had some friends, they were selling online, and they’re like, we don’t know what to do to get people to want to buy our products. And I had a marketing background. I’d been in copywriting and content marketing for a number of years prior to that. And so in some ways, just kind of fell into it, and then really immersed ourselves in the world of E-commerce and Amazon and figuring out what it was going to take to help people be successful both in the short term with being able to generate more sales. You know, encourage more positive reviews, fewer negative reviews, being able to minimize the return rates, it’s not just about converting as many people have passed as possible. And so really thinking through all of those aspects to make sure that we are helping people set themselves up for success, while simultaneously helping them think a little bit deeper in developing out a brand and something that has reach and longevity. So they’re not just that thing that you bought on Amazon, but something that is really an asset that you can sell one day or just continue to grow and, and run as a profitable business into the future. So we’ve been doing this for a long time, we’ve seen Amazon change a lot, as I mentioned earlier, and are the the main sort of driving thing that we continue to focus on is ensuring that we know what’s working now and staying on top of things and ahead of things to the best of our abilities so that we can continue to help clients succeed with their business goals. 

Ben Donovan  07:04
Yeah. And what is working right now is definitely what I want to try and dig into. Because there are some timeless aspects and there are some evolving strategies for sure. So it would be good to dive into those we’ve talked about, you know why copywriting is so important in E-commerce. But let’s talk about some of the things that are, you know, those timeless things, those timely things that are beginning to change, I’d love to just obviously start with Amazon listings, because they are a topic that a lot of people want to know about and want to hear about. And I think that like we’ve said before, there will be lots of parts of it that will be weaved through, there’ll be good for ecommerce, sort of like DTC websites, which we can kind of point out as we go. But just give us a bit of a lay of the land before we dive into maybe like the beginning to end process, a lay of the land, what do you feel have been the major changes over the last sort of year or two that are changing how Amazon sellers have to approach the process of writing a listing that does convert? 

Emma Schermer Tamir  08:08
Yeah, so first of all, A plus content is not really optional. From my perspective, it’s a must. And if you are eligible for premium A plus content, I absolutely recommend that you that you do that as well. In order to be eligible for that you need to obviously be brand registered, just like with standard A plus content, you need to have a brand story uploaded, and you need to have at least 15 pieces of of enhanced brand content approved within the last 12 months. So it’s you know, something that’s a little bit more advanced, but it gives a an opportunity for sellers to be able to create a more dynamic, engaging piece of content than what the standard a post content allows for. So that’s a big one. 

Emma Schermer Tamir  09:01
I would also say that, really, in general, and this isn’t specific to Amazon, this is just the way that marketing and cumin content consumption is changing is it’s really been influenced by platforms like TikTok and so you know, what is that shock value? What is that thing that’s going to grab your attention, very visual. And so really be mindful of that from start to finish when you are creating your listing and thinking about how can you make it very visually engaging. How can you make sure that you’re reeling people in that you’re communicating why they need it and using all of those different parts of your listing to the best of your ability. 

Emma Schermer Tamir  09:51
I also like to be thinking about where Amazon might be going as far as how they allow sellers to be able to use their listings in the future. So something that we saw being tested, I want to say it was about a year and a half ago. And I’m actually quite shocked that it’s hasn’t just been made a permanent feature, but they were testing, making the images scrollable directly from the search results page. And so that’s just kind of seared into my mind as something that could very well happen at any moment. And regardless, even if it’s not, because humans are such visual creatures, and increasingly more so with all of our social media usage, how can you use just your product images to tell the story that you need to tell, to present the information that you need to present and to make sure that by the time people have reviewed all of your product images, haven’t even gone to the rest of your listing, they’re sold already. That’s kind of the goal. And so it’s not to discount or say that the other parts of your listing aren’t important. But that that is sort of a critical piece that needs to be very well thought through both on the visual side, as well as how you can strategically incorporate text into your images, so that they’re not just a bunch of pretty pictures, but that they are providing important information and helping to push the sale forward in some way. And then mirroring that information throughout the rest of the listing.

Ben Donovan  11:35
Images is one of the things that I was going to come to towards the end, really, but I think that actually I feel maybe we should talk about it now. Because I’ve asked you what you feel is changing. And so much of what you said there is about the visual side of it, which I completely agree with that. I completely agree that, you know, the conversion, you know, needs to really happen most of the time in those images. Otherwise, people are going to click elsewhere and look at other products. If they don’t aren’t sold on buying your product in the product images, there’s a good chance that they won’t buy a product. But you as a copywriter, you know, there’s still so much importance in what you would do as a writer, but you’ve talked so much about the images there. So what brings those two together? How is your research process kind of structured that makes sure that both of those things come together? And is the written side of the listing even that important anymore? 

Emma Schermer Tamir  12:28
Yes, it is that important. And not just because I’m a copywriter. But also when I’m talking about images, I’m not just talking about a pretty picture. So you know, there’s that this is one expression that I do actually know the full thing, which is “A picture’s worth thousand words”. I think that’s what they say. So that that’s complicated, right? Because somebody looks at a picture and what you see in that picture, and what I see in that picture might be two totally different things. And neither of those things may actually be what the person selling that product wants us to be seeing or knowing or paying attention to. And so actually utilizing text within your images is a vital piece of making really impactful product images so that you don’t just have pictures of some different angles of your product. But what are the key pieces of information that somebody wants to know? What are the buying criteria that somebody is considering? How is this going to fit into someone’s life? What problem is it solving? So all of the questions that we are considering when we’re putting together the copy for an outline for the rest of the listing. You want to be really just, you know, what’s the word? Consolidating, there was a different word that was that I was trying to think that’s the one that came to my mind you having to, you know, kind of smoosh all of that down into a really small amount of space. And so the words, you don’t, you don’t want to have a photo that’s just packed full of words. And you see that a lot. And that’s what can happen sometimes when you go too far to the other extreme, but at the same time, there are many times that you look at a listing, and there’s almost no text in the images at all. And so you’re really getting a very incomplete view of the product. So you can see, okay, well, this might be the size of it or something like that. But that’s not the only element that you’re considering when you are making a decision as a buyer. And so it really is almost the outline or the storyboard of the rest of of your listing, and how you use text in a thoughtful, concise way can really make those product images very persuasive.

Ben Donovan  14:59
Yeah. Then in terms of like the research process that you go through to build out this plan, because I imagine, and I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but I imagine you are someone who does plan out a listing and figures out which direction you’re gonna go in with a copy with the images, that kind of thing. What does that research process look like? Is it just a tool like Helium 10? Download the keywords and plug them in and go? Or is there a bit more to it than that?

Emma Schermer Tamir  15:24
Yeah, it’s pretty robust. So I’m very much a believer that the planning and preparation work should take just as long if not longer than the actual writing part. So the more time that you spend being really strategic and thoughtful about how you’re going to position your product is going to have a massive impact on every other decision you make. It’s very much a domino effect. And funny enough, I had a team meeting today, we had a writing workshop, and we were talking about this very topic. And so we started this whole conversation here in this podcast today discussing, you know, it’s a very competitive landscape. And so because it’s so competitive, it’s really important as a seller to understand what arena are you trying to compete in, and sometimes you have a choice between different arenas. So let’s say that you’re selling a, I don’t even know if this is a real product, it probably is. But let’s say that you’re selling a sleeping bag for dogs, pretty specific.

Ben Donovan  16:40
It probably does exist,

Emma Schermer Tamir  16:41
I feel like it probably does. So you’re selling a sleeping bag for dogs. If you’re being kind of either lazy or not going as deep as you should, you could very easily conduct your keyword research and all of your planning around something more general, like sleeping bag or camping supplies, and it’s going to be very difficult to be competitive there. You might get some sales. But if you’re actually trying to sell to a more specific niche, that it would be in your favor to get more specific with all of those things. So maybe you find actually, there’s a huge opening for multipurpose dog beds, and your sleeping bag, if you pile it up in the right way, then it could kind of be this is not the most thought through examples, I’m just sort of this idea that you have the broader category, but you might have more specific categories within it. So maybe you see that, you know, Father’s Day gifts for dog dads is a really popular search. And there aren’t a lot of people that are targeting that keyword. And so that’s a direction that you want to go in with part of the way that you position your product for for the Father’s Day buying time of year, that if you are not doing your keyword research properly, if you’re not clear about where you’re selling, if you don’t have a strong understanding of who’s going to be buying this product and where you can be competitive, then it’s going to be really difficult to make even any of those creative decisions. Because if that was a keyword that you were trying to target, you want to make sure that you have imagery of a, you know, guy and his dog cuddling up and being all cutesy and father-son like together to reinforce that idea. Whereas if you are just having a bunch of pictures of just a dog, or maybe a woman and her dog, not that there’s anything wrong with that, but it might create sort of a mismatch. And so your keyword research and your competitor research are are very influential. So we use a few different things to make sure that we’re being as comprehensive as we can be with this stage. We use Helium 10. We use Data Dive. We also use AI to do a review and consolidation of reviews so that we can get a clearer sense of the pros and cons of the competitors that are out there. And then we do a lot of off Amazon research as well, because people are interacting about products and problems beyond Amazon. Amazon is where they go to solve the problem, but it’s not necessarily where they go to talk about the problem. And so utilizing the things like Reddit, Quora, YouTube Tiktok, Facebook groups, all of those can also be really fantastic resources to do some of that initial homework to figure out how you want to position your product. And that might actually be homework that’s worth doing before you even decide on a product to launch. But whether you’ve done that or not, you definitely want to make sure that you do that work before you sit down to write the listing itself.

Ben Donovan  20:28
You mentioned a few times about solving problems. And that’s like a huge thing for everyone. Our mantra is all about creating great products that solve specific problems for specific people, you know that there’s a clear problem solving element to otherwise it’s not going to be a long lasting product. But you’ve talked about sort of finding it in the reviews and finding it on Amazon. But I think where a lot of people have that challenge is to get in the mind of the customer, especially if they’re the person that is that they are not their audience, they’re not their target customer, you know, there’s a young single guy that’s trying to sell baby products to moms, you know, and trying to get in the mind of the customer. How do you go about that process? Because you do that all the time, right? You would write about products that you wouldn’t necessarily be the target market for? How do you get into the mindset of the customer? And work out how to position that product to that customer?

Emma Schermer Tamir  21:24
Yeah, it’s a great question, I almost treat it like an actor preparing for a role. So if you’re just looking on the surface, it’s going to be really difficult to have a convincing, honest representation of that character, if you will, because it is the same ultimately, we’re trying to facilitate an interaction that feels genuine and authentic, even if sometimes you are not actually that person, you know. And so you need to understand, who are they? What do they care about? What are their fears? What are they worried about? All of those deeper things, and then what you can use? And I know that this might sound uncomfortable to some people, but you know, think about what are those underlying emotions, because even if you’re not a parent, you still probably have something that you can relate to, on a deeper level about how it makes you feel. So if you’re, you know, a parent might be worried about the safety of their child, maybe you have aging parents, and you’re worried about their safety and their ability to be able to exist independently in the world. So it’s not the same, but some of those emotions underneath are the same. And so looking for those commonalities that you might share with the people that you’re selling to, will allow you to have a more honest and true representation of what you’re trying to do, rather than falling into some of those cliches that I think we we also see a lot of which is assumptions of you know, this is always how, like, how a mother would talk or what a teenage guy would be into. And it’s pretty shallow, and it’s missing a lot of those deeper things. And even if you’re not talking about all of those elements, by having an awareness of those things, you just allow for people to feel seen and understood, which is really important, especially if you’re trying to solve a problem, or selling something that, you know, if I’m buying something, I don’t have children, but I have a dog, if I’m buying something for my dog, I want to make sure that that thing that I’m buying is really safe, because I don’t want to give him something that could make him sick, or or, you know, make me need to take him to the vet because of whatever. Or he’s going to destroy it in two seconds and make it you know, all those things I really care about. And so it’s not just about wanting my dog to feel safe, but it’s wanting to feel trusting and like the brand that I’m buying from has my best interests in mind.

Ben Donovan  24:31
Yeah. Yeah, that’s good. That’s good. So obviously, there’s a lot of research, we’ve covered a bit of it there. We could spend a whole episode just on that. But I do want to get into the the process of creating something that then converts Are you taking that research, you’ve got your keywords, you’ve got your topics, all that kind of stuff. Are you going images first, are you writing the copy first, what’s your thought process there?

Emma Schermer Tamir  24:53
So we sort of experiment with a lot of different processes where I’ve seen before The most effective is to do a full outline of everything. And so we’re outlining a few different things. When we’re outlining. We’re outlining, what are those benefits that are really important. So when I say benefit, what I mean by that is, Why does someone want this? How is it positively impacting their lives, whether it’s a problem it’s solving, whether it’s just something aspirational, that they’re striving towards? – being really clear on those. What are the features and the details about this product that are super important that I have to make sure make it into the listing, because if not, then people are not going to have just that basic information that they need in order to be able to feel confident that this is the right product for them. So it could be anything from material to size to where it’s manufactured, it will really depend on what you’re selling, what category you’re in, and what your customers concerns are. And then taking all of that research that we’ve done as well about where do we feel that you can be positioning yourself in a strategic way? And what is the conversation sort of in that competitive landscape, so that you can make sure that you understand your place in it. So whether you’re different in some way, or you’re talking about something that nobody else is talking about, all of those things are really important as well. And so by outlining everything, you make sure that you don’t miss anything, you make sure that it all makes sense together. You make sure that the important things are maybe even being reinforced throughout the listing. So you know, if something’s really important, and the only place that you put it is in the fourth bullet, that’s not a good idea. If it’s super important, you want it in the images, you want it in the bullets, and you probably want it in the A plus content as well, because people don’t look at a listing linearly, they’re kind of hopping back and forth, you know, maybe they look at the images and they scroll down, they glanced at the a plus content, they look at the reviews, they go back up to the bullets, you know, it’s it’s kind of dynamic thing. And so, so there are some points that you will want to make sure to repeat. And so by outlining all of that out, then you know that you’re not missing anything important, you’ve made sure that you’re really clear on all of the things that you need to call out and you understand what the benefits are. And so then the only thing that you’re left with is to have to do the writing and fit in the keywords. And so it makes it a much easier process at that stage, then needing to simultaneously think about what information do I need to include? What benefit am I talking about? What keyword am I using? That’s where things get really messy really quickly.

Ben Donovan  27:57
So you’re saying it’s not a quick, easy process?

Emma Schermer Tamir  28:06
Sadly, no, but also, if you think of and, you know, you mentioned this at the introduction of this conversation today. Your product page is so influential to the performance of your whole business, your SEO strategy is going to impact your visibility, what you write is going to influence your conversions. And if you’re providing customers with a positive or negative experience based on the expectations that you’re setting forth, and how you’re positioning yourself, and then building the relationship for either repeat customers or you know, word of mouth recommendations, so it has a lot of influence on so much of your business. So might it take a little bit longer to do a good job? Yes. Why would that be something you would run to rush though, if it does have an influence?

Ben Donovan  29:08
Yeah, absolutely. And this is, I’m always harping on more recently, especially with our community about testing, continue to test your listing, because just because you’ve written your listing once and you’ve got everything up there, doesn’t mean you can’t tweak and improve on things. And Amazon gives you the manage your experiments thing to be able to split test now. And, you know, I think some people forget the kind of volumes we’re dealing with on Amazon. A lot of people think, well, I’d love to have a product that maybe sells 10 units a day. But if you think about that, that’s if that’s 10 sales, and let’s say your conversion rate is 10%. That means you’ve got to have 100 people coming to your listing every single day. That is a lot of traffic. Most websites don’t get that for the first year, two years. And that is a lot of traffic. And if you can just tweak some things and work on something that maybe it takes you a day, maybe it takes you a week now, but if that improves your conversion rate by just 2% and it’s 12% Instead of 10% as to extra sales a day, how many over a year that is, you know. They say don’t do public math so I won’t try. That’s a lot of money, right? You know, and you invest a little bit upfront, but it’s, there’s so much potential because of the sheer volume that you deal with these small tweaks can can make a big difference,

Emma Schermer Tamir  30:16
Right. And every day new competitors are entering the arena and eager to, you know, take your sales away. And so why not make sure that you’re being as competitive as you can possibly be. And that isn’t even considering the fact that we also are not selling in a vacuum. The world around us is constantly changing, including what customers care about, including how knowledgeable customers are about certain categories. And so that means that keyword trends are going to change how people want to see images is go, you know, just even visually how things are designed. If you had something that was designed 10 years ago, that’s going to look really outdated, and it’s not going to be appealing to people, and so on every level, things are constantly changing. And so it’s it’s really in your best interest to make sure that you’re at you have a firm understanding of what’s happening in your space, so that you can make sure that you are reflecting that in all of the different things that and choices that you’re making. Yeah.

Ben Donovan  31:27
You mentioned about scrolling up and down, looking at the bullets, looking at the images looking at A plus content. I think that’s one that I sometimes struggle to think about, what should we include in our main images? And what should be in that A plus content? How do you decide what goes where? What’s the strategy there?

Emma Schermer Tamir  31:42
Yeah, so some of it is even just how it’s laid out, that will be helpful. So for example, and maybe again, it’s not that you necessarily have to have totally different concepts in both, you do want to have different content. So you don’t just want to repeat exactly what you have in your product images in your A plus content. But you don’t also necessarily need to talk about 10 separate things from what you discussed in in your product images. And so thinking about your A plus content, almost like a mini landing page, I think is the most helpful way of considering it. And just like with your product images, were looking at them as a standalone and saying, “Does this give customers what they need to want to buy my product?”. Your A plus content should ideally be something similar, where it flows really well together, it tells a story, it’s sort of hierarchically organized. So you know, you lead with something that’s more important and more sort of has mass appeal, maybe a bit emotionally engaging, and then you might get into some of the finer details later on. You also don’t want to feel too limited by literally using the modules and the way that they’re meant. So you know, the the modules that Amazon gives you, you can take them in a very straightforward literal way of this is a big banner, or this is a small image, but any of those with with some basic design, you can modify them to be what you want. So maybe rather than having one large image and a banner, you want to break that up so that there’s a third at the top that’s, you know, something separate. And then the bottom two thirds is a big, nice lifestyle image. You also have some different text boxes that you can use. And we’ve sort of drifted away from using the majority of those text boxes, especially the overlay text, because the overlay text, you can’t really control where it sits. So it can very easily throw off how the text is appearing within the image as a whole. And also, the proportions are not great. So we find that if you actually want to have some text in your A plus content images, it’s better to just edit that text directly into the image in the font and color and style that you want and that it’s placed exactly where you want it so that it’s also looking consistent on whatever device you’re on. Also be mindful of how it’s going to appear on on your phone and to not have texts be too tiny. 

Ben Donovan  34:44
Yeah, that’s what I was gonna say, because that’s where we’ve gone back and forth. We, you know, a couple of years ago, I loved the idea of it’d been just like five or six stacked images, and it just looks like one free flowing, amazing image. But then on mobile, it doesn’t have quite the same impact. So then if you use like the three columns of images and the text underneath, that comes across a lot better on mobile, because then they’re stacked. They’re not like three columns. And it’s just trying to find that balance between what works well. But then in saying that what you said earlier about premium A plus content is probably a good solution for that, because there’s lots more creative options, there isn’t so

Emma Schermer Tamir  35:22
Right, because then you have that dynamic. There’s dynamic modules that enable you to kind of click through or scroll through different things. And it’s also just the way that we’ve kind of been trained as consumers to interact with websites. Yeah, that’s the one thing about Amazon that I always find interesting is it in that respect, it always feels a little bit behind. 

Ben Donovan  35:48
Yeah, totally. 

Emma Schermer Tamir  35:49
From, you know, the rest of the consumer goods world is, we’re just now getting to have access to dynamic dynamic listings, even the way that a listing is laid out with the title and the bullets and everything. It’s very old fashioned feeling. But I think that’s just kind of the nature of the beast. And I don’t really anticipate that those things are going to change drastically anytime soon. But it is nice to see that A plus content is coming, you know, much longer way and premium A plus used to be something that you had to pay. First of all, I think you had to be invited, and then you still had to pay a lot of money to be eligible to use it. And so the fact that it’s free right now, it might not be free forever, but it’s free now. So might as well.

Ben Donovan  36:50
Definitely. Absolutely. It’s funny, isn’t it with Amazon how antiquated some of it is, and I’m amazed that you can’t just toggle, you know, like you can on website platforms, you can just hide certain elements on desktop, or hide them on mobile, you know, you can choose which device they show up on. And it’s just amazing to me that you can’t do that. But I’m sure maybe that one day will come one day, Amazon will get there in the end. So obviously, lots we’ve kind of talked through so far. And lots, we could talk through more, but I’m just conscious of time. So I just wonder if there are any key mistakes that you often see Amazon sellers make when they try to write the listing on their own, do it all themselves, and maybe don’t seek out your expertise, what are some of the things you have to you know, immediately fix and see all the time to try and kind of help point people in the right direction?

Emma Schermer Tamir  37:45
Yeah, I There are so many I would say some of the most common mistakes are being too wordy and being too keyword stuffed. So just not being concise in the way that you need to be. People are not going to make the effort to read or to go searching for the information that they want. So really making it easy to digest, easy to skim, easy to find what you want and need is super important. Keywords are important, but you do not have to cram them down people’s throats, you have many different fields that you can put keywords in both in the front end and the back end. You know, we have everything from every single A plus content module, you have image keywords that you can add, you have your back end search terms, you have your title, your bullets, your product description, you have a lot of space to work with. So you don’t need to be saying great gift for Mother’s Day gift for Father’s Day gift. You know those? I thought that we would maybe be done with those bullets by this point in time, but I still see them a lot. And if you want to have that, you know, for Mother’s Day, then update it seasonally. So it’s for Mother’s Day, and then it’s for Father’s Day, and then it’s for, you know, Christmas or the holiday, you know, adjust it to the time of year at the very least. So I would say those are our two really big ones. Not being clear on the benefits is another gigantic one, you know, just kind of listing the basic features and not really going any deeper than that is is a very common mistake. And assuming that the customer knows things or understands things that they don’t, yeah, great when you spend too much time with a topic. You forget what the average person knows about it. And so it’s very easy to assume that someone understands why this certain type of reinforced steel is the best steel that you could possibly choose. So I don’t know much about steel off the top of my mind, I can learn about it. But as a customer, I’m not necessarily going to go do my homework and go spend five hours learning about all the different kinds of steel. So if you have a really special type of material, help me understand why I should care about that make that ie a deal breaker for me and saying, Well, I don’t want a product that isn’t this

Ben Donovan  40:28
Totally. Yeah. So agree, I was on a call with one of our Brand Builder University members the other day and talking about this product that he’s designed and he’s had a mold created. He’s really kind of, he’s not innovated like a new product as such, but really improved with was already there with some really good innovations. And I said to him, just make sure that you were talking about his packaging. And I said to him, you know, needs to have like a quick start, quick setup guide in the instructions. And he kind of hadn’t even thought about that. And I said, Yeah, that’s because you know how to use this because you designed the mold, you looked at the drawing a 100 million times, you know this thing inside out. You’ve probably had dreams about this thing. You’ve thought about it so much. But your customer is going to pick it up. And they’re going to want to know how to use in three seconds flat. And you need to get try and get in that mindset. And it’s so true, isn’t it, you need to forget how much you know about it and think about the customer who knows nothing about this product.

Emma Schermer Tamir  41:21
Yeah, it’s called the curse of knowledge. So the curse of knowledge essentially says, you forget what it’s like to be a beginner. And so you leave out a lot of basic information that the average person would need, because you’re you’re five steps ahead of them.

Ben Donovan  41:40
Yeah, yeah, no, interesting. Yeah. Good. Okay. And final question, before I let you go is just about the future where everything’s heading. Obviously, yours is an industry that, you know, could potentially be, you know, has it to some extent already be impacted by AI the development of what’s going on? And just for anybody that’s kind of interested or kind of related to it in their industry, I do like to ask where you feel the future is going, not that we know for sure. You know, nobody knows 100%, where everything’s going. But I think it’s something that a lot of people are thinking about right now. What is your what’s your take on it? It’s a broad question.

Emma Schermer Tamir  42:14
Yeah, I think that on the long run, AI is going to have massive impacts on every part of our lives beyond what I think I’m even capable of comprehending. I’m not a futurist. So I don’t know that I have the skills to make those kinds of predictions. But as far as on the shorter term, and more specifically, with my industry, it’s definitely something that is already been impacted. And I think it’s impacted in a few different ways. So one is, it’s making mediocre, very accessible for everyone where it wasn’t before. If you had a language barrier, if you’re just don’t have the time, if you’re not skilled, you can get something that’s kind of okay, pretty quickly and easily. But that actually creates a new challenge, which is that if the baseline is equalized, then what do you do to be exceptional? What do you do to be able to stand out because there are still going to be people that are going to do better, and people that are going to be doing worse. And so that’s where I think it makes it even more critical to figure out how some of these things that we’ve been talking about today. So that strategic positioning, having a really clear understanding of who your customer is. And so utilizing AI to be able to do a lot of that homework, synthesize a lot of that information, even help with some ideation around different things to make sure that you’re you don’t have any blind spots, but then utilizing what humans also do really well, which is being able to think creatively and outside of the box. And so being able to fuse those two things, so to make certain aspects faster or easier, and then be able to actually have more space and time to be able to be thoughtful and strategic and creative so that you are able to, you know, be at the top and yeah, you’d everyone else.

Ben Donovan  44:19
Yeah, no, I think I agree with all of that. I would, yes, I agree. But who knows what’s gonna happen?

Emma Schermer Tamir  44:27
Who knows? That’s what that’s where I see things today. And AI has been around for a while and it’s been accessible to people for a while. And I you know, I wouldn’t have expected that it would shift so quickly, so suddenly, and now in some ways, the big buzz doesn’t feel as buzzy and it feels like maybe some of these intensely swift changes that people were forecasting. Don’t seem quite as close by as they did a few months ago. And they could be right around the corner or they could be a few years down the line or, who knows. So I think the main thing is just to stay up to date, to be clear about where how you can use these tools to the best of your abilities, and then be able to understand where human influence can really allow you to get that extra edge.

Ben Donovan  45:30
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, great answer very well articulated. This has been really helpful. There’s obviously so much I feel like we are, you know, scale along the surface of a very, very important topic that we could delve into for hours upon end, probably. But the good thing is, obviously, you can help people with this, you do, this is what you do for a living, if people don’t want to go through that hard process that we’ve outlined. And such a critical process, as we’ve also outlined, because of the nature of the competition, but also the potential, so much volume, so much traffic, and if you can get good conversion rates, get people to your listing, there is so much opportunity, talk to us, you know, give us a bit of a call to action on your services, what you do. And then where’s the best place to find you if people are interested?

Emma Schermer Tamir  46:16
Yeah, absolutely. So we can help with your keyword research and outlining your whole listing creating the copy. So giving you a really solid framework for everything that you need to be able to have an awesome effective converting listing, including very clear guidelines for your designer or photographer so that everything also works together really cohesively, we also offer a free listing analysis. So if you’re feeling like you, you have a great listing, but you want another opinion, or that something isn’t working, and you’re not sure what it is, and you feel like you’ve just been scratching your head. And at a complete dead end, we’re always happy to take a look at what you have and give you some feedback and without any charge or obligations or strings attached. So the best place to to find us as at marketing by emma.com. If you go to Marketing, my emma.com/free analysis, then you can request that free analysis. But there’s also a really easy to find form on the site, if you just go to the main page. And you’ll also find there all of our contact details, you can email us you can WhatsApp us, text, call, we’re available on most of the places and happy to help, happy to, you know, help you get that listing to where you want it or to answer your questions or whatever we can do to be of assistance. 

Ben Donovan  47:52
Yeah, that’s really good. Thank you so much. And I’m sure there will be plenty of people that are interested in that, as you’ve shown such expertise in the topic. Thank you so much for coming on. I really do appreciate you taking the time out, chatting through this really, really key topic. Yeah, it’s been an honor to have you on.

Emma Schermer Tamir  48:08
Thank you so much for having me. I loved chatting with you and always happy to geek out on copywriting and Amazon and all that jazz.

Ben Donovan  48:20
That’s awesome. Well folks, thanks for listening to the episode I’m sure you got as much value out of that as I did. Check out the links in the description to see all Emma’s services, everything they do. They will be there ready and waiting for you get that free listing audit, get some good input into your listing there because it is so so critical that you do really get those converting as good as possible. Thanks so much for joining us on this episode today. If you have enjoyed it, please do like subscribe, all that good stuff, share it with somebody to make their day, made my day too. And I will see you in the next episode same time next week. Take care!