Todd Goldstein founded Whoa Dough just a few short years ago and now sells millions of healthy snack bars per year.
What started with a vision to create a healthy snack he and his kids can enjoy has turned into a fast-growing national brand.
In this interview, we dove into exactly how he’s done it and talked about product development, branding, marketing, building teams, staying lean, and a whole lot more.
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- 00:00 – Introduction to Guest: Todd Goldstein
- 00:40 – Todd’s Background
- 01:09 – Story Behind Whoa Dough
- 03:05 – Crafting a Gluten-Free Product
- 07:44 – Obtaining Food Product Certifications
- 09:59 – Whoa Dough Branding
- 13:05 – Getting the First Sale
- 15:54 – Whoa Dough Growth and Expansion
- 17:46 – Building the Team
- 19:48 – Raising Capital to Fuel Accelerated Growth
- 20:46 – Finding a Product Manufacturer
- 22:39 – Other Challenges that Whoa Dough Faced
- 25:52 – Business Outlook for Whoa Dough
- 27:21 – Final Advice For Entrepreneurs
- 28:02 – Where to Find Whoa Dough and Todd
Hey folks. Welcome back to another episode of the Brand Builder Show. And in today’s episode, we are talking to a verified Brand Builder himself, Todd. Todd, welcome to the show today.
Todd Goldstein 00:11
Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be on the show.
Ben Donovan 00:13
Yeah, well, I’m looking forward to diving into your story, having a little talk through your brand, the brand that you’ve been building, I’ve had a little look at it. And it looks incredible. So I’m looking forward to picking your brains of how you’ve done it and all the things you’ve done to to build it up to where it is today. Speaking of which, give us a bit of background on yourself before we dive into the questions and how tos, et cetera. Yeah, let us know what you’ve been up to the last few years and what you find yourself doing today.
Todd Goldstein 00:40
Sure. So originally from Cleveland, Ohio, Midwesterner, grew up in a family-owned restaurant. I was put to work as a young age in the bakery, and spent my whole life really, really sick every time I would eat. And then in 2011, I was actually diagnosed with a severe gluten allergy, which completely changed the trajectory of my eating habits, but also led me to starting Whoa Dough.
Ben Donovan 01:09
Whoa Dough. So I love the name. That’s cool. And let’s talk through the brand. And I’d love to hear more about it. Because there’s so much that we could sort of break down. In terms of the idea, obviously, it came out of a pain and a frustration for you. What is the product in itself? Is it just sort of one? It’s like a snack brand, isn’t it? Is it just one? Or is it multiple foods? So what’s the makeup of the brand?
Todd Goldstein 01:36
Sure. So you know, it started with me having a severe gluten allergy. But then in 2015, and 2017, two of my three boys were born. And severe gluten allergies, as well. And I started thinking about the things that I loved the most as a kid. And one of those things was cookie dough, right? Whether you eat it raw when you were making cookies in the bakery, at my family’s restaurant, or, you know, at home with my parents or grandparents. And so what I thought to myself at the time, it was just like 2019 was, what happens if we take cookie dough, and make it into a grab and go snack bar that anyone can eat on the go, but really focused on people with gluten allergies, and looking for a better for your product. So the number one focus was gluten free. It just also happened to be plant based, egg free, soy free, vegan, dairy free. So it really kind of hits all those markets of people that have allergies, except two of our flavors do have peanuts.
Ben Donovan 02:43
That’s a lot of criteria to meet. And I’d love to go back to the start, I suppose with product development, because that must have been a challenge to hit all of those criteria when you’re developing the product, it can’t have been easy to formulate everything. Is that something that you’ve been really hands on with or have you just so used a company that already had a pre made formula? How did that whole side of it work?
Todd Goldstein 03:05
Yeah, so you know, we did not start with a pre made formula. We didn’t use a company who said “You know, here’s two recipes, just kind of pick one”. You know, actually the original recipe we came up with and 2019 by early 2020, we had recognized it was not the right recipe to go to market with and that had been like version 19 and so actually right as COVID was hitting, we went back to the drawing board and completely redid all of our recipes to make sure they tasted just like cookie dough. Not a protein bar, right? Because there’s a lot of protein bars on the market there’s not a cookie dough flavor protein bars. And really for us we want to be the first cookie dough snack bar true cookie dough first bar second. So you know we spent a lot of time thinking about okay, how do we get the right taste texture combination? How do you get the right flavor profile? So today we have seven flavors – chocolate chip, brownie batter, sugar, sugar-sprinkle, sugar-sprinkle, peanut butter, peanut butter chocolate chip, and oatmeal. So kind of like all your traditional cookie flavors. And then kind of what transpired over the last year was a lot of our core customers kept asking us can we bake your bars and we’d be like you know you can but they’re not really meant to be baked. So we’re now launching a ready to bake out completely allergen friendly cookie dough that actually has to be refrigerated so our bars today are completely shelf stable. So you can eat on the go out of the fridge however you like your cookie dough snack bar, but are ready to bake or launching is a purely refrigerated product. But it tastes when we created it. We really tasted with the idea of if you have an allergy you can’t eat your traditional Nestle tollhouse or Pillsbury. And so we really worked on creating a recipe where the cookies baked more like a traditional chocolate chip cookie and sugar cookie. Unlike typical gluten free or vegan products that maybe big more like a shortbread or have like a potato tastes because I use potato starch, we don’t use any potato starch in any of our products.
Ben Donovan 05:25
And you mentioned your history, you know, bakery, I imagine that was a quite an asset to you, was it?
Todd Goldstein 05:31
Well, I mean, I was only five. So you know, okay, that’s my, you know, my parents would go to work, and they put me in the bakery. You know, I could, you know, mix and, you know, kind of brought in a pan and do stuff like that and eat a bunch of cookie dough and stuff like that. But it was, I’d say it was the foundation of loving, you know, being in a family on a restaurant loving, you know, desserts and sweets, and then having a gluten allergy and not be able to eat those things. Set me on this path to be like, okay, you know, I want to create something that, you know, I love, right, I like eating sweets, I like eating cookie dough. You know, my kids can’t necessarily do that today. And neither can I actually have gluten allergies. What do I go out and create that weekend, eat too good about putting in our bodies, and then share with the tens of millions of other people out there today that have some sort of allergy that affects their life? by choice or by necessity?
Ben Donovan 06:27
Yeah. And then what is making a norm kind of asking a lot about this, but it’s quite fascinating for a lot of people, I think that, like you just sort of sit there with a load of bowls of ingredients and just mix them and guess and taste and then eat some more and trust more tomorrow, how do you do it?
Todd Goldstein 06:44
So you know, I’m not a chef by training. So I actually started working with someone who just had a lot of food experience. And she’s based out of California and her and I just kind of would go back and forth with you know, let’s do this. Let’s try this. Like we really kind of worked. You know, I worked hand in hand with her giving feedback, talking about different ingredients, like thinking about, Okay, what should this really tastes like? Right? Like, how do we get that nostalgic feeling of going back to being a kid or a parent, sharing that experience of making cookie dough? And, you know, again, it’s not, you know, like I said, when we first started, we went through nights and iterations to get to a soft launch. And then once we realized exactly what we’re going for, it really took us just a couple iterations to kind of to really hone in on the right recipe, the right ingredient makeup to get to really what we felt was more of a traditional cookie dough bar, and now ready to pay cookie dough.
Ben Donovan 07:44
Yeah, is it a lot of admin and hoops to jump through in terms of, you know, the Food Standards and, and the certifications you need, et cetera?
Todd Goldstein 07:53
So for us, you know, we looked at as you know, being gluten free ourself. We thought it was very important to be certified gluten free. Just because you’re saying a product is gluten free doesn’t mean it’s gluten-free, right. And so you know, by going through the certification process for certified gluten free, they really go and look and make sure that it is everything is certified gluten free. So if you’re giving it to someone who has, you know, a severe, severely allergic to gluten, they can say I feel good about them safely eating my product. Next was non GMO project verified. And again, that’s just a no brainer, right? Like, I want to put our feel good about what I’m giving people myself and giving to people consumers to put in their body. And so it was, you know, I felt, you know, nobody wants the products with GMOs in it, right. I mean, nobody wants engineered products. And that’s, that’s what a lot of the big brands are doing today. Right? I mean, you could see it, you know, you know, and look at the ingredient labels, right? It says bioengineered, right, that’s not off, right. We want to feel good about what we’re making, what people are eating, what people are putting in their bodies. Our product today is sold in two of the largest school districts in the US today, because it qualifies as a full grain credit. So it can be served as breakfast, as long as there’s 90 million meals served in schools today, K to12. And so non GMO is very important to that, right. Like, we know, we’re putting good things in kids’ bodies. And then last, you know, we thought it made sense to be kosher. So we’re Oh, you kosher? And you know, because a lot of people look at, oh, you kosher as a as kind of like a health standard, right. Like if your product is kosher, it’s gone through some level of scrutiny. So from the kosher from the non GMO, from the certified gluten free, you know, it really kind of makes you hone in on saying, okay, you know, we’re doing the right thing by getting these certifications and allowing people to understand that we are safe product if you’re looking for kosher products if you’re looking for non GMO verified products, if you’re looking for certified gluten free products.
Ben Donovan 09:54
Yeah, very cool. Very cool. So you got your first product in place. Now. I’d love to Bring it back to the branding, how important was brand to you, you obviously you’ve got a good product, but you’ve also created a great brand. Where did the idea behind the feel and the name and the look of the brand come from?
Todd Goldstein 10:13
Yeah, so actually, the name of Whoa Dough actually came up. We came up with by one of my business partners and another business. We were just kind of tossing around ideas. And he came up with the name. And I was like, That’s it. Right? Like, Whoa Dough, right? I mean, it just makes so much sense. You know, so we, we originally, we came up with the name, we spelled it W O H, and we realize that there was a prime, there’s someone who is using that name for a totally different purpose. And so then we kind of went back to the drawing board are like, Okay, what if we do it? Whoa, W-H-O-A and we’re like, Oh, yeah. Wow. Right. And so from that point on, it was it was very, you know, made sense. And then you’re we actually worked with a creative agency in Cleveland called Twist, twist, creative. And really, when we thought with the name, like, whoa, like, the brand had to be big, right? It had to have a big presence and had to stand out. And so when they designed it, and we did it with them, it was really about being bright and colorful and drawing people to you, right? Because you think whoa, right? Like, you want people to have that reaction when you say the word, but you see the brand. And so think about our packaging today, it’s really colorful, you know, when you go to we do a lot of trade shows, right? So that’s our big is getting our product into the market, whether to meet buyers, customers, see buyers, retail buyers, and that can be you know, airline industry K through 12. Food Service. You know, our booth really stands out because we’re big, we’re pink, we’re colorful, we weren’t drawn in like water was meant to be a fun, exciting brand. Not, you know, not a pasta brand.
Ben Donovan 11:56
Yeah. And that comes across from the website, I think it really was the first impression you get is there’s something colorful, it really pops. So it’s as good. Do you think you’ll ever do products beyond the doe? Arena? Do you feel that the name limits you in that sense? Because I know there’ll be a lot of people that want to start an E commerce business don’t want to be too restrictive with the name, but also want to have a niche? Where do you live with that?
Todd Goldstein 12:19
Yeah, I mean, we have a portfolio plan. You know, I think ideally, starting with the bars made made sense. And then it was just based on our consumers request for the baking kind of really led us to create the ready to bake, which we’re now launching into the market over the next 45 days. And then really, from there, you know, our focus is to probably continue to expand on flavors for ready to bake, and then take a pause and really kind of just really go really deep with our two product lines. And then, you know, we do have a pipeline of other product line extensions. But I think our goal is to really focus in on our bars and are ready to bake and maybe different formats of the product before launching any new innovation that’s in our pipeline.
Ben Donovan 13:05
Nice. Yeah. Awesome. I’d love to learn more about how you do sell the products. You’ve mentioned a few ways there. But if we were to take it back to the beginning, how did you get your first sales? What was the launch strategy for the Brown, who was your first customer?
Todd Goldstein 13:21
So our first retail customer was a local grocery store has 23 locations called Highlands. And I actually, you know, I felt by being local, we had to start local and go really deep here. So we got into that store pretty quickly, I actually happened to meet the chief operating officer of Highlands. And he introduced me to the buyer, and the buyer said, you know, something, you’re local, I’m gonna give you a chance. And so that’s really, you know, that’s really how it started. I went in, I gave a presentation, she tried into Let’s go. At the same time, you know, just like a lot of entrepreneurs, right. We did farmer’s markets. You know, we we also got right on Amazon, right. Amazon is one of the best tools, because unlike in retail where it takes some time to get market adoption, you understand that people like or dislike your product on Amazon, you know, really quickly. And then we worked with I called the box companies, right? So like the bunny James to the world, imperfect foods, misfits, the places where people are combining products and sending out gluten free specific product vegan specific products going into like giving giving the option opportunity for our product to get our core customers hands and then seeing if that drives sales, either in retail, or online.
Ben Donovan 14:40
Yeah. And what would be the breakdown of your sort of sales volumes today. Obviously, you mentioned Amazon retail, I assume you do a direct to consumer front a portion now from the website. What was the breakdown now?
Todd Goldstein 14:53
I would say today probably 10 to 15% is direct to consumer the Rest is retail. And we do some airline as well. So in, in 2022, we were on all American Airline first class baskets, and the first half of this year. And that was a great opportunity for our brand to make some money, but also to get our product into, you know, I think we moved almost over one and a half million bars. And so ROI was an opportunity to build brand awareness, sell some product. But then we saw the direct effect by people buying more product in store, people going online, going to Amazon, going to our website, going to some of our other online, go into some of our other online partners. So you know, sometimes you look at things purely for margin, which is 95% of our business. And then sometimes you look at things as quasi margin quasi marketing opportunity. And that was really it for the airlines for us.
Ben Donovan 15:54
Yeah. And can you talk us through a bit of that growth? Because that’s, you know, you mentioned that $1.5 million? Was that through the airline, or is that for the years?
Todd Goldstein 16:02
Yeah, that was just for the airline. That’s cool. Yeah. So from 2021 to 2022, our business grew 383%. Wow. So it’s just exceptional growth. And we continue on a very strong trajectory in 2023, and even looking forward even stronger in 2024. Because one of the other core markets we opened was the K through 12. Market.
Ben Donovan 16:32
Yeah. Which that would be huge, right?
Todd Goldstein 16:35
Yeah, I mean, 19 million meals per day serve in schools in the US 5.6 billion per year. And kids seem to really enjoy our our products. One school district alone buys 10,000 bars a month.
Ben Donovan 16:52
That’s crazy. Yeah. And have you gone international as is still just in the States?
Todd Goldstein 16:56
We have some international business. But you know, we haven’t gone deep there yet. We’re really focusing stateside first. And then we’ll look to push International, most likely, probably mid to late 24 into 25.
Ben Donovan 17:12
Yeah. Nice. And how’s the team grown? As you’ve grown as a business?
Todd Goldstein 17:17
You know, we’ve continued to keep it pretty lean, just because we are a startup. And you got to be lean, right? I mean, you’ll see I do a lot of the trade shows myself, we have a small team. You know, they’re part of our team, or, you know, part time a lot of people carrying a lot of hats. But I will say this without our team, we wouldn’t be here today. You have to build a good core team around you that’s dedicated to building your business with you and believes in your mission.
Ben Donovan 17:46
Yeah, absolutely. What are the main functions that your different team members hold?
Todd Goldstein 17:52
Sales, marketing and operations? Everything sales, it’s not just you know, traditional sales. It’s also like sales operations, trade shows. Today, we’ve probably already done 25 trade shows this year, and we have another hand over the next 45 days.
Ben Donovan 18:10
Yeah. And do you for the retail sales? Do you have to pitch them a lot? Are you getting them come to you more? How is that working?
Todd Goldstein 18:18
So a lot of times our first connection with retail is at a trade show where we’re meeting buyers, they’re trying buy our product for the first time. And then it’s it’s the follow up loop, right? And what I would say to anyone out there who’s thinking about starting their own CPG brand, that it’s a long game, there’s no you meet a buyer that plays a huge order. It doesn’t work like that. There’s a review process. And it could it could be years. I mean, we actually just got into a retailer recently, it was Albertsons, and it was a two year process. I mean, because it’s like, you know, they may review, they may review in August of every year, and you may meet them in September. And that review in August might not be fulfilled. You may not go on shelf until the following, you know, eight months later. And so you’re always come a year and a half out from when you have that. It could be up to a year and a half out from that first time you meet a buyer.
Ben Donovan 19:16
Yeah. You talked about some of the growth you’ve seen. Have you financed? Have you taken on financing or has it all been bootstrapped?
Todd Goldstein 19:27
So today, we’ve completely you know, the core team is completely self-funded the business. We are looking at right now, raising capital, just to accelerate our growth. We see some really big opportunities in front of us and we feel like now’s our moment and capital can help accelerate this opportunity for what?
Ben Donovan 19:48
Yeah, if you’ve got any hesitation about that, or any fears, you know, it’s a big step to take, isn’t it?
Todd Goldstein 19:56
Yeah, it is a big step to take but you know, I recognize As the you know, we can only take the business so far without it. And, you know, at some point you choose either slower growth or faster growth. And do if you look at the categories, we’re going after the bar sack, you know, it’s very crowded, but the running debate set is not so crowded. And so we think there’s an opportunity to blow a hole right into that market and really gain market share. Yeah. And so, you know, we’re our teams kind of decide, you know, let’s go for it. Let’s identify, do we have the right amount of capital and raise while we use the funds for and, you know, go on, raise the capital to accelerate our growth?
Ben Donovan 20:36
Very cool. And in terms of manufacturing, how has that evolved over the years have you had to change manufacturers as your capacity has grown?
Todd Goldstein 20:46
Yeah, so when we first started working on the product, we was just an exception. Sorry, when we first started working on the product, when we’re just getting started, we used to kind of have more of a small test manufacturer. But once we really nailed the recipe, we moved to a manufacturer in our own backyard in Ohio, and they can scale with us indefinitely. So that’s been a really good partnership for our bars. And then for are ready to bake. We’ve actually identified two different manufacturing partners in the Midwest and southwest. Yeah. And so just making sure, you know, the goal was to line up the capacity before we got started, because we thought we had a big opportunity in front of us.
Ben Donovan 21:29
Yeah, producing edible goods is obviously a challenging, you know, aspect, maybe, maybe you don’t think it is but you know, I’m used to like just hard goods, you know, but, but edible stuff is other challenges, too. Are there some challenges you’ve faced with manufacturing things you’ve had to be aware of? And didn’t maybe realize? And I’m surprised, do you anything like that at all?
Todd Goldstein 21:53
I wouldn’t say there’s been major challenges in the manufacturing process. But I’d say because of COVID, and supply chain issues, you know, really sourcing ingredients. So I’ve gotten really good at you know, having different, you know, suppliers for every ingredient we have. So that way, we always have redundancy. Because you listen, if you don’t have ingredients, you can run your product can’t run your product and sell you got a problem, right? So it’s, it starts with the ingredients, then manufacturing, done selling. And so, you know, I’ve worked really hard on shoring up our supply chain around ingredients, and materials for packaging. So that way, you know, we have what we need to get our team the product they need to sell.
Ben Donovan 22:39
Yeah, definitely. have you faced any other challenges? What are the biggest things that have? Have you ever got 20 points where you thought it might all cave in? Or is it all just been plain sailing?
Todd Goldstein 22:50
You know, there has been different points. I mean, there’s just there’s always things that come up. And sometimes you just can’t even believe things that happen. You know, six weeks ago, we were at the airport flying fancy food, and our flight got canceled at seven o’clock at night. And we had to be there by 8am the next morning. So the team literally with off that airport, got a car and drove and arrived at 2am. You know, we were just on the road this last week starting on Monday for a full week. And I, my team was nice enough, you know, kind of said, Hey, I said hey, can I fly home? Friday nights, I could be with my family. They’re like, sure. Saturday night, I get a call the car broke down an hour and a half away from our office. And so at eight o’clock at night, I jumped in the car and had to drive, you know, couple hours to get the team get our product yokes. We had some of our product left from the show that we had to reuse for the next show. And so you know, was up all night didn’t get home to almost 1:30 just there’s always things that come up. There’s always challenges you have to overcome it sometimes and sometimes it’s good. Sometimes it’s bad. You know, it really is difficult, right? Like you hear these stories like, Oh, this isn’t gonna happen to me, or awesome. It does, right? Like, no one’s immune to the challenges. And no one’s you know, there’s the good and there’s the bad with everything that happens and being an entrepreneur. And sometimes it does take you to your tipping point, like you sit there at night. You’re like, what am I doing? Right? I got, you know, Saturday night, I get home, I’m like, you know, man, like I am just wiped, right? I have a child for five days and just had a drive for hours, five hours. You know, again, there’s no guarantee of success, right? You can work really, really hard. But you know, starting a CPG company is not a one year and it’s sold right. It’s most of the companies you hear about whether it’s perfect bar hue kitchen tastes, I mean, the list goes on and on that 10, 15, 20 years to build a business. And we’re really only three years in the market. So we know we have a long road ahead of us. Yeah.
Ben Donovan 25:07
Which is a perfect sort of segue to the final question I wanted to ask, really, you’ve talked a lot there about how you still feel, even though you might be selling millions of bars, it’s still very much like a scrappy startup, you have to hustle. And, you know, I love that by the way that you’re selling all these bars, but yet, you want to pick up the car load of bars that you’ve got from one place to take it to another, and they’re precious to you. And I love that spirit. And that’s what an entrepreneur needs to be. But where is that going? You talked about that 10, 20 year journey? Do you think about Whoa Dough in the mindset of “I’m gonna go do X, Y, and Z”, and then I’m going to have this final outcome? Or is it just I’m enjoying it. I’m just gonna keep on building it and see what happens.
Todd Goldstein 25:51
Yeah, I think right now, we’re at the point where we just want to keep building it, right. I mean, we’ve had good reception regarding good reception by the market regarding our bars. And the reception has been just as good if not greater for our right of a cookie dough. And so we think we have something really special. And so right now, the team is having a lot of fun building it. We believe we’re creating a product that’s impacting people’s lives in a positive, positive way. We’re giving people this opportunity to, you know, make cookies with their family. So if you have someone in your family who doesn’t have an allergy to someone in your family, who does, you can now make the real chocolate chip cookies and eat them and enjoy them together. And so, you know, I think, right now, we enjoy it. Yes, there’s challenges. But there’s challenges in everything, right? If I want to work for someone rather be challenges, right? For sure. And so, right now, I control my own destiny. And that’s what it is to be an entrepreneur, you control your future. And yes, you know, there’s, there’s things that could happen that could, that can affect that. But ultimately, I control my own destiny. And I believe, as long as we work hard, create a really good product, continue to get in front of buyers and consumers and show people this is a product that is safety. That’s cookie dough. You don’t have to worry about salmonella and other things. When you hear recalls from large companies. We think we’re onto something and we think that the market will prove out over the next 3, 5, 10 years, Whoa Dough can become a household name.
Ben Donovan 27:21
Yeah, it certainly sounds like it to me. And like I say, I’ve been very impressed, looking at the brand and hearing what you’ve had to say. And so it’s it’s an exciting future, no doubt. Final question I’d love to ask is just any parting advice you’d give to anyone that’s looking to start a passion project, whether that be, you know, food based or other based just at the beginning of their journey? What’s the top bit of advice that you would give them?
Todd Goldstein 27:49
So there’s no such thing as an overnight success. And make sure you have product market fit. And those are my two biggest pieces of advice.
Ben Donovan 28:02
Yeah, definitely. That’s really good, really good. You’ve, you’ve certainly got product market fit with Whoa Dough. And it’s going to be an exciting journey. And I’ll certainly be watching along, to see how it all unfolds. If people do want to pick up some bars and check the product out themselves, where’s the best place to go to get hold of them?
Todd Goldstein 28:20
So whoadough.com or Amazon for the bars. And then if you want to try to ready to bake, go to plant X?
Ben Donovan 28:27
Perfect. Well, we’ll leave links to the website, in the show notes and the description as well. Todd, it’s been great to have you on the show. Really appreciate you taking time out, especially if you’ve seen as you’ve been traveling, and you’ve been busy. It’s an honor to have you on the show today.
Todd Goldstein 28:41
Thank you, Ben, I really appreciate I really appreciate sharing our journey. And, you know, if anyone’s out there, feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. You know, especially if you’re getting ready to start a food company, whatever I can do to help people. I mean, it is a journey, and you need to try to help build that community.
Ben Donovan 28:57
Yeah, amazing. That’s very generous of you. And I’ll include the link to your LinkedIn as well so people can reach out there. That’s amazing. Thank you very much.
Todd Goldstein 29:05
Great. Thank you, Ben. Have a great week.
Ben Donovan 29:07
Todd Goldstein 29:08
Ben Donovan 29:09
Awesome, guys. Well, I hope you got as much value out of that as I did a really really great informative interview with Todd. And if you do want to check out Waldo make sure you do follow the links below. Check it out in stores near you, I’m sure everywhere all over the country all over the world at some point, and thanks for being on the show today. And we’ll see you in the next episode. Same time next week. Take care