Fiona Chan is the founder of Youthforia, a cosmetics brand that specializes in makeup that’s actually good for your skin.
Youthforia has been growing like crazy since launching just a couple of years ago and even secured a Mark Cuban investment on Shark Tank recently.
In this episode, we talk about:
- Where the idea for Youthforia came from
- The challenges of cosmetic product development
- How Fiona got her first sale and continues to grow marketing efforts
- And of course; the Shark Tank experience
- Get our weekly eCom Memo
- 00:00 – Introduction to Guest: Fiona Co Chan
- 00:44 – Fiona’s eCommerce Journey
- 01:30 – Conceptualizing, Innovating, and Developing Products
- 04:20 – Challenges of Innovating in an Established Market
- 05:45 – Collaboration with Manufacturers for New Products
- 06:43 – Safeguarding Unique Selling Points
- 07:27 – Establishing Strong Branding Principles
- 08:53 – Securing the First Sale
- 09:45 – Leveraging Influencer Marketing
- 11:32 – Exploring Youthforia’s Marketing Channels
- 15:39 – Pitching on Shark Tank
- 19:33 – The Impact of Appearing on Shark Tank
- 21:04 – Building the Youthforia Team and Operational Insights
- 21:40 – Navigating Growth Challenges
- 22:21 – Planning for Future Product Development
- 23:39 – Closing Insights for Entrepreneurs
- 24:29 – Where to Connect with Fiona and Explore Youthforia
Hey folks. Welcome back to another episode of The Brand Builder Show and in today’s episode, we got a very special guest with us to talk about how she has built an incredible makeup brand. And that guest is Fiona. Welcome to the show today, Fiona.
Fiona Co Chan 00:13
Super excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me,
Ben Donovan 00:15
though it is my honor. And I am excited to dive into I’ve been having a bit of an investigation into your brand. And I absolutely love it, I think is incredible. You did an amazing job. And so I am really keen to try and grill you as much as I can to understand for me and for our listeners, what you’ve done so well and how we can learn from you. But to give our listeners a bit of an idea of who you are, what you’re doing, could you give us a bit of the backstory, how you got into ecommerce, and where you find yourself now.
Fiona Co Chan 00:44
Yeah, so Youthforia, we create makeup you can sleep in. We are a two and a half year old makeup brand. And prior to this, I had no experience in makeup or beauty at all. I used to tell ISOCELL like very complex software to data center or something super different. But what had happened was during the pandemic, I ended up actually getting stuck in Asia. And I think it was just the first week of not putting on makeup for me that I realized that makeup is really about getting ready because you’re going to go out and see people and really connect with people and have a good time with people. And I am someone who, if I’m out with my friends, I’m so guilty of this, but I always fall asleep in my makeup. And I just thought when it’d be great if we had makeup you can sleep in that really acted like skincare that if you accidentally fell asleep in it, it was going to be okay.
Ben Donovan 01:30
Yeah, I’d love to learn a bit more about the product development side of it to begin with, because there’s innovation there, right, we always talk to our community about you don’t need to innovate, create something brand new, you need to take what is already in demand and add some new and interesting features. And that’s exactly what you’ve done. But there’s there’s quite a lot of innovation in there. Because as you say makeup is a product that generally hasn’t had those features. How did you get started with that concept? Was there a lot of research into what was actually in makeup took us through that journey?
Fiona Co Chan 02:01
Yeah, I think with makeup and skincare, traditionally how it’s been is like you have makeup on one side, you have skincare where you get all your benefits on the other side. And what we did differently is we really tried to create these like hybrid formulas. And what we do is we combine like really nice, luxurious makeup textures with functional skincare ingredients. So you’re getting the added benefit while you’re putting it on your face. But this was something that was pretty hard to do. Sometimes when you combine these sort of ingredients, the textures might not sit the same way, the performance might not be there. But for a makeup product, you really still want the right sensorial aspects, the right texture. So originally, it was a little bit difficult to just kind of figure out the right groove of things. And then for some of our products, we kind of created some of the world’s first so that was a different journey of how complex that product development process was.
Ben Donovan 02:53
Yeah, because in hindsight, obviously, hindsight is 2020. But it sounds like an obvious thing, right? Create makeup as healthy of your skin. But was there anybody else doing it? Was this completely revolutionary? Where were you in that spectrum?
Fiona Co Chan 03:07
I think when I was growing up, it was always like, you should never sleep in your makeup. And it kind of got me thinking, if we you know, if we can’t fall asleep in our makeup, why do we feel comfortable putting it on when we’re awake when we’re awake for like 16 hours a day? And so I really just kind of started thinking about how can we use a combination of ingredients that’s a little bit different from what everyone else is doing. Sometimes I’ve seen these kind of like makeup skincare hybrids, where maybe it’s a drop of a skincare ingredient, but it doesn’t do anything to improve the performance. So I really do kind of think about it from a more holistic way.
Ben Donovan 03:40
Yeah. Do you see yourself setting a trend in the makeup industry? Do you think there’s lots of people will follow you?
Fiona Co Chan 03:46
Yeah, I think so. I think with even with some of our products, I think we’ve definitely trended new concepts, new form factors, really fun ways of creating makeup products. Like for example, one of our first products was creating this green color changing blush oil. It’s our byo blush, still one of our best sellers. And I remember when we launched it, it was just like so much confusion. It was a very different way of creating a blush, but I knew that it had a beautiful effect on skin. So that’s definitely something where we do think that there’s some things that we do trend and it’s kind of exciting to see it grow.
Ben Donovan 04:20
Yeah, definitely. I watched your Shark Tank pitch, which would be great to hear about towards the end of the episode, but which is where you talked about that product, I think and the sharks were all sort of amazed by it. And it was a great concept. And so it’s, you know, it’s great to be I think doing something that is revolutionary in a very established market. You know, makeup is one of the biggest markets in the world. And it’s so established but you bring in something new to it has that that innovation brought you any unexpected challenges, you know, in product development, marketing, anything like that. Have you found that doing something really new like that has brought you unexpected challenges in any way.
Fiona Co Chan 05:04
Definitely, I think from a product development standpoint it is. Some of my ideas are just like so out there that it’s always I love it when I hear like, that’s not possible. That’s not possible. Sometimes I just wait for, you know, innovation on the ingredients side to catch up for something that I really want to do. So I have like a long list of product ideas that some of them I’ve just tabled, and I’m just waiting for some of these ingredients to catch up. And some I’ve just had to completely put it to the product development graveyard just because it just doesn’t work. But I love completely thinking of new ideas. And then on the marketing side, when it’s a good new form factor. A lot of times we just have to do a lot of education. I love showing how to use, how it’s different. And things like that
Ben Donovan 05:45
Yeah definitely. How far do you push it with manufacturers, you mentioned there, push back, and a lot of our community would experienced the same thing with trying to innovate or improve differentiate products. Often you’ll get factories that no, we produce this product this way. And you try and tell them no, I want this added. And it’s there’s pushback sometimes there and people sometimes are wary of how much do I push this? How much do I just let it go? What do you how do you find that balance?
Fiona Co Chan 06:11
I think it’s really important to find partners, whether it’s on the manufacturing side, or anyone on the R&D side that really understand your vision, and that you collaborate really well with a ton of ideas, I get pretty much a no, pretty much every step of the way. It’s just part of the process. And what I love about hearing no is that sometimes when you have limited resources, or you’re told you can’t do something, I think a lot of great innovation comes out of it. Definitely, it’s been true for us. But I kind of bake it into our process now.
Ben Donovan 06:43
Yeah, definitely. You’ve got obviously some clear USPs in your product. How are you protecting those? Is it just first to market? Are you doing anything to protect that side of it?
Fiona Co Chan 06:53
Yeah, I think definitely, with a lot of our products, it’s thinking about how to complete innovate on the category. So first to market is something that’s really important to me, I think, you know, just from a product development standpoint, and I’m really passionate about product development, is I love creating things that don’t already exist or thinking about how to solve problems in a really unique way. So I’m talking about our products, just by nature of when we launch it, they’re extremely unique ingredients that we use is really unique. The textures are really unique. And the effect on skin and how it sits on skin and looks on skin is usually really unique as well.
Ben Donovan 07:27
You’ve got a really clearly defined brand. I think the website clearly communicates the kind of brand that you are, what are some of the principles that you drew on in the early stages of setting out the brand, feel the look everything like that? What did you really instigate in that first period to make sure that branding was really strong?
Fiona Co Chan 07:47
Yeah, from a brand design perspective, I just remember walking down all the makeup shops and all the makeup aisles and all I saw was either like black and white packaging, or maybe it was like some shade of millennial pink and thinking this does not resonate with me at all. This is not how I feel about makeup, I don’t feel, I don’t I don’t always feel super refined or put together. I just want something that’s fun. For me, makeup is all about fun. So I really want to create a fun and colorful brand. I like to say that Youthforia is a brand for your inner child, but with super nice luxurious ingredients that you might want. You know, as you get older,
Ben Donovan 08:22
Was that the first name for the product, the brand, by the way, Youthforia?
Fiona Co Chan 08:26
Yeah, my husband actually named the company when before we started Youthforia and had an [inaudible] we always had this experience of a feeling when we’re so happy. We’re just reminded of our of our favorite childhood memories, but we never put a name to that feelings. So when it came time to name the brand, it was just like a no brainer that this was what the brand wanted, what the brand name was going to be. And I love kind of incorporating that feeling into all of our products.
Ben Donovan 08:53
No, I love it. It’s really, really smart name. Let’s talk a bit about marketing. I’d love to understand how you getting this product into people’s hands, especially because it is a little bit innovative, you know, which does change how you market things, obviously. But bringing it back right back to the beginning. How did you get your first sale?
Fiona Co Chan 09:09
I think it was my mom. I think it was my mom for the first week. And she was really kind because when we launched the brand, it was like in the middle of a pandemic. I didn’t know really what I was doing. I had no marketing plan and we launched to crickets. And I think my mom was like, Okay, let’s just encourage her. I think she bought a blush, like, every day for a week or two until I actually got sales. But originally it was through social media. We had sent some packages to influencers. We maybe had like a couple 100 followers and it kind of drove a little bit of sales. I mean, not a lot but you know, just a couple.
Ben Donovan 09:45
Yeah. And how did you grow that influencer marketing side? Was it working with lower level creators? Were you paying big money for big creators? How did you go about that?
Fiona Co Chan 09:50
Originally, when we launched the brand, it was just sending it out to influencers? Definitely and have a marketing budget to pay influencers at the time just want to get their feedback with our blush, it was something that was so different that a lot of people who did share it with their audience, you know, they had this really surprised look on their face. And that was something that customers really resonated with. And then I started posting on TikTok pretty soon after we launched and that was a great driver for us as well.
Ben Donovan 10:24
Yeah. Was there anything in particular you did with TikTok?
Fiona Co Chan 10:27
I think one of my first posts was just comparing our blush oil to, let’s say, like a powder blush, which is a pretty common format. And just to show the visual effect of how different it looks on skin. And there was definitely a lot of curiosity of like, what’s that green thing? What’s that blush oil? And then really just responding with additional videos of how to use it, how it’s different from maybe a typical blush that people had perhaps tried before?
Ben Donovan 10:52
Yes, the kind of product and it’s got the kind of USPs that you feel, which is crushing it on Tik Tok. You know, it’s such a good marketing channel. Have you managed to take those short form videos and expand on to other platforms with them as well?
Fiona Co Chan 11:05
Yeah, we definitely do the same thing on Instagram, I think both Instagram reels and TikTok in particular, they’re just great at that short, short form video. And it’s really great for makeup because it’s so demonstrative.
Ben Donovan 11:16
Yeah. Do you just take the same content, put it on the other platforms?
Fiona Co Chan 11:21
Sometimes we do. Sometimes we create new content for Instagram reels is a slightly different pacing, slightly different messaging. But it’s really, it’s still that same concept of creating short form educational videos.
Ben Donovan 11:32
Yeah. Have you expanded into like paid acquisition, Facebook ads, Google ads, anything like that?
Fiona Co Chan 11:38
Yeah, we do a little bit of paid. Mostly on Instagram, we do some Google. But it’s again, taking that same idea of short form, informative content and kind of circulating it.
Ben Donovan 11:50
Yeah, definitely. And then about other marketing channels, do you do much with email and SMS?
Fiona Co Chan 11:57
We do do with email and SMS, with email, I love just kind of drip, educating our consumers on how to use the products, just because I find that some of our products are really unique. And the ingredients that we use are, how can us make a pact with them? So I like to do that with email.
Ben Donovan 12:14
You’ve obviously got a product that’s very akin to repeat purchases. Are you doing anything in particular to drive more subscriptions, ongoing revenue like that?
Fiona Co Chan 12:25
We don’t do subscriptions currently.
Ben Donovan 12:27
Are you doing? Okay? I just imagine it’d be a product that would have quite a strong demand for that. But you must have a quite a loyal repeat purchaser base. I’m sure if they love the product. I’m sure they keep coming back for it.
Fiona Co Chan 12:38
Yeah, that’s been something that’s been kind of great to see. And especially as our line has been expanding, and we’re adding more products. Seeing that kind of pickup has been really great for us, too.
Ben Donovan 12:47
Yeah, that’s awesome. Definitely. I saw that you are selling on Amazon as well. How’s that working for you?
Fiona Co Chan 12:53
Yeah, Amazon has been great. I think we’ve been on Amazon ever since maybe a couple months into the brand. And what’s been great about Amazon is that a lot of our customers just search for our brand on Amazon. It’s been something where I kind of think about, let’s just be where the customers are. We’re also at Ulta Beauty, which is a great channel and just a great partner for us. But both have been doing well for us.
Ben Donovan 13:18
Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, I think a lot of people maybe two, three years ago, brands were resistance going Amazon for various reasons. But a lot of people like you’ve said they’re realizing that branded search is getting so big on Amazon now that you’re actually giving sales to competitors if you’re not on Amazon. So I think it’s a definitely a smart play. What kind of percentage if you were to roughly not super exact, but obviously, you’ve got DTC, Amazon. Is there anything else are you have you got any sort of retail in the mix?
Fiona Co Chan 13:47
Yeah, our biggest retail partner is Ulta Beauty. And they’ve been great for us. We’ve launched an Ulta Beauty about a year ago. And what I love about Ulta is that there’s so many beauty shoppers that just shop at Ulta. They have a great rewards program, they have such a great customer base. And I love that we’re able to show up in stores and have a physical manifestation of the brand and we get to have testers and people get to really try our products for themselves.
Ben Donovan 14:13
Yeah, nice. Yeah. So I’m in England, so I didn’t know that was a physical retail store. But that’s cool. The in terms of like the breakup of sales, like roughly what would would be like your strongest channel?
Fiona Co Chan 14:25
Probably I would say like equal thirds.
Ben Donovan 14:27
Okay. Oh, nice. That’s the girls really good. Yeah. Amazing. Anything else marketing wise that you’re doing that’s particularly sort of special or unique? Or you feel like it’s really helping the brand at the moment?
Fiona Co Chan 14:40
I think between just organic, some paid, some email, some influencer I think that’s kind of like our marketing mix at the at the moment.
Ben Donovan 14:49
Yeah. And sorry, just to circle back on on influencers. You mentioned about early on it was sort of just gifting products to influencers. Has that remained your strategy or have you worked with paid influencer posting yet or keeping it organic?
Fiona Co Chan 15:03
A lot of I mean, we’re only like a two and a half year old brand. So still, like, we did a lot of seeding. So it’s still do a lot of seeding. We’re starting to kind of experiment a little bit more with paid influencer programs, but it’s still pretty new for us.
Ben Donovan 15:16
Yeah. And seeding would just be quite natural thing. Just DM them on TikTok, Instagram. Hey, love your profile, we’d love to send you some free products, no strings attached that kind of thing.
Fiona Co Chan 15:27
Yeah, exactly. Like if they love a product, and they want to share about it. It’s great. Also, it’s also a great way for us to receive feedback. I love hearing feedback from influencers as well. But yeah, typically, that’s about the program.
Ben Donovan 15:39
Nice. Nice. Okay, I would love to talk about the impact and the experience of Shark Tank. It’s obviously something that a lot of people, you know, would love to do, but you’ve been on it. And from what I’ve read is, it was a successful experience for you, right?
Fiona Co Chan 15:55
Yeah, it was a really fun experience I filmed about a year ago, or episode aired earlier this year. And I kind of describe it as a very fun way to do a very serious business meeting. The prep that goes into it, it’s really fun. Because you get to design the site, you get to pick out your outfits, kind of find your pitch, but I was really nervous going into the pitch. Because in my pitch, it’s like a minute and a half pitch that you have to memorize. I actually apply the blush on and I was so nervous about like, am I gonna get this right? I hope you don’t mind, makeup isn’t lopsided, I don’t really have that much that many seconds to get it right. And you can actually see my body language completely changed. As soon as I put the blush, you can just see like this sense of calm. Kind of like, I just really feel that. And after that I just had a great experience and a great time.
Ben Donovan 16:48
I think you came across as so confident, so sure in the brand. Honestly, I was so impressed, it was a great presentation. Did anything surprise you about the experience from having watched it on TV to then actually being on it?
Fiona Co Chan 17:02
I think being on the set, I will say that it’s so much bigger than what it looks like on TV, or that’s just like my preconception of it. But it’s a very surreal experience. I think the sharks are all extremely nice. You can tell that they genuinely love, like just helping entrepreneurs, that was a really great takeaway that I had just being in the tank. It’s extremely fast pace. And one thing that’s that kind of surprised me is you actually do your hair and makeup before you go on Shark Tank. And for me, at the time, I had just started kind of preparing our latest product, which is our foundation and I thought okay, would it be great if we just if I got the opportunity to wear our foundation on TV. And I remember after my makeup was fully done, I was like, “Okay, this, this foundation looks really good”. It gave me just a different sense of confidence, and being able to show up with our products on your face and go into the tank and pitch it. It was such a fun experience.
Ben Donovan 18:00
Yeah, very cool. So no, no dressing room with five people around you doing everything for you. You’ve got to do it yourself.
Fiona Co Chan 18:06
Everything is yeah, you do everything yourself.
Ben Donovan 18:08
And how long did you have to be there? Was it just the one day?
Fiona Co Chan 18:10
It was one day? It’s a long day, a really long day, you don’t exactly know when you go on. So you’re just kind of waiting. And I remember when I got to go on set. I was like, Okay, this is really cool. Like it’s actually happening. I was just like, really grateful that you know, I got the experience to even go into the tank, pitch to the sharks. But yeah, overall a great experience.
Ben Donovan 18:36
There’s no guarantee that your pitch will even be aired. It’s not.
Fiona Co Chan 18:40
Yeah, there’s no guarantee. There’s no guarantee that you get to film. I just remember like, I just remember the moment that I was putting on my blush on. I was like, I can’t believe like, even if this was an air I can’t believe I’m just demoing my blush to to the sharks.
Ben Donovan 18:52
Yeah, definitely. And then, obviously, once you had pitched I don’t know how much you’re able to talk about it. But in terms of success, investment, that kind of thing. What happened there?
Fiona Co Chan 19:02
Yeah. So we ended up closing the deal with Mark Cuban we were his first makeup deal. And he has been such a great partner for us. He’s so supportive. He is just helped me a lot. So even in the last couple months, we’ve been talking a lot about, you know how to launch a foundation, how to think about growth. And he’s been extremely, extremely helpful.
Ben Donovan 19:21
That must give you a lot of confidence. Like you’re just rolling that off like it’s just any old thing. But Mark Cuban’s an investor in your business and he’s advising you on growing, that’s pretty awesome.
Fiona Co Chan 19:32
Ben Donovan 19:33
You must go out there with your brand and just have yeah, just a real sense of. Of course you have confidence in the product, but to know someone like that is investing in it. It must give you a lot of confidence, which is awesome. In terms of the immediate impact, did you see immediate growth in terms of branded search traffic to your website? The Shark Tank effect as such?
Fiona Co Chan 19:54
Yeah, that’s for sure take effect is great. I remember while the episode was airing, there was just so So much more traffic to the website. It was nothing like I’ve ever experienced. before. I remember, Amazon was also doing really great that night. But then after Shark Tank, there was just more recognition for the brand. A lot of people had seen the episode on Shark Tank, they mentioned it. And that was really cool to see.
Ben Donovan 20:19
Yeah, cool. Is there anything in terms of having an investor or that post Shark Tank experience that is different to maybe how you expect it as well.
Fiona Co Chan 20:29
I think it’s really nice to have investors that are just really supportive, that are trying to talk you through any challenges that you might have, I think investors, especially someone like Mark Cuban, he’s gone through so many businesses before, and he’s been successful as a founder, so many times over, there’s just really great wisdom and insight from him that I feel like speeds up my process, as I’m kind of working through some of our challenges.
Ben Donovan 20:55
Yeah, was that the first investment round you did?
Fiona Co Chan 20:59
So I just also closed a series seed. It’s all kind of done at the same time.
Ben Donovan 21:04
Nice. Awesome. I’d love to just round up by talking about some operational stuff, how sounds like you’re growing really quickly. What was the team sort of looking like taking shape? Sounds like you’re very involved in product development. What is your involvement become? And what does the team look like now?
Fiona Co Chan 21:23
So right now, we have about 12 people we’ve hired in sales and marketing, I still run our Tiktok account, exclusively. I do a lot of product development. I love doing a lot of design work as well. Pretty involved still with, you know, all parts of the business, but started to really hire out sales and marketing.
Ben Donovan 21:40
Yeah. And what are some of the growth challenges that you’ve faced growth is exciting, obviously, but comes with its challenges. Where have you been stretched on that journey?
Fiona Co Chan 21:51
I think since we launched in the pandemic, and we kind of started out of the pandemic, there’s been challenges, different types of challenges, depending on what time of the year it is or what season it is. There’s definitely been challenges like on a supply chain side, things like that. There’s a lot of always some unforeseen challenge on that side. And then sometimes it’s managing inventory. Sometimes it’s I don’t know, my ideas for the next product I want to create. There’s challenges on the PD side, there’s always something
Ben Donovan 22:21
Yeah, how far ahead? Are you trying to think in terms of product development? Have you got the next few years mapped out? Or is it just the next couple of products getting off the conveyor belt?
Fiona Co Chan 22:32
I feel like I have some ideas that I hope we can create them. Sometimes they really do have to be tabled. Sometimes I have things from content backburner that I’m kind of going to relook at and see if we kind of think about it again or innovate again. But I tried to think about things like kind of like it was a three year timeframe. But there’s always like some things that come in and out of that, that plan that master plan.
Ben Donovan 22:59
Definitely. And then looking forward to the future. Do you think about things when you’re thinking about it day to day the future of Youthforia? Is it a case of trying to build it towards a certain point and selling the business? Obviously, with investors now that’s potentially a pressure? Or are you just enjoying the process and see where it leads me?
Fiona Co Chan 23:17
I really enjoy the process. I think my ultimate ultimate goal is to create a full face of Youthforia. And I would love to kind of realize that and develop more products that are super, super innovative.
Ben Donovan 23:28
Yeah. Nice. That’s awesome. And is there anything else you’re doing in the entrepreneurial space other than Youthforia? Or are you 100% focused on this?
Fiona Co Chan 23:36
No, this is this is 100% of my time.
Ben Donovan 23:39
Yeah. Probably takes 100 attempts any time doesn’t it? It sounds like it’s super exciting. And I’ve been, you know, so impressed by seeing the journey and seeing it all unfold. Just to finish out what what’s the one thing if you could offer some advice to someone that’s maybe where you were, before you started? Got an idea excited about ecommerce? What’s the kind of advice that you would give them?
Fiona Co Chan 24:02
My advice would be to just start. I think there’s never a good time to start a business. And you learn so much about yourself and that resiliency that you develop just by starting. And a second piece of advice I would give is embrace your uniqueness. I think a lot of great things come from having a unique perspective. And no one can really take that away from you. And I think you’ll give a such a unique creativity to whatever you do create.
Ben Donovan 24:29
Yeah, that’s great advice. Fiona, this has been super, super helpful, really awesome! Where can people find out more about youth for you or yourself? Whichever you like, which, yeah, where can they find out more?
Fiona Co Chan 24:40
So we’re on Instagram and Tiktok at youth forea or website is www.euphoria.co. And you can shop us on our website on Amazon and an Ulta Beauty.
Ben Donovan 24:50
Amazing. Well, we’ll get the links for that in the show notes and the description so everyone can check you out. Honestly, really appreciate you taking the time. It’s been super valuable. And I know our listeners will have got so much out of it. So thanks for coming on Fiona.
Fiona Co Chan 25:03
Yeah, thank you so much.
Ben Donovan 25:05
Also Well, I hope you did really enjoy that. That was a really great interview about a really great business. Check it out, check out the Shark Tank presentation as well. It’s really really fascinating. And check out Youthforia all they’re doing amazing to be able to watch this brand as it develops. Thanks for listening today. If you have liked it, please do like, share, subscribe, all that good stuff. And we’ll see you in the next episode same time next week. Take care!